Hot Take: Rhythm & Melody

Midnight Jazz

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Is it even possible to have pace, flow, tempo, etc without rhythm and melody? I feel like the whole video falls apart after that fact. And no this isn't about 100 clips per minute or psychedelic editing or other flashy things but strictly about smoothness. 30 seconds into a video without I already know this said video is struggling.

On top of that, rhythm is the character of the song like how the melody is the emotive spirit. Which is why rhythm is so prevalent in the personality behind rap music. Every song has its distinction because its not completely interchangeable.

Agree?
 
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Leelee

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I've never thought of editing in this sense, at least to the point where I'm explaining it while reviewing a video. Do think how it's explained here follows what pacing and flow touches on to a degree, just in a more structured way.

I'll take that back, flow is something that's hard to explain and still isn't fully knowledgeable to editors as it's based on your thoughts imo. Do think it falls in line with Rhythm and Melody as you have to find the appropriate rhythm to develop a flow that matches well with the music choice.
 

Midnight Jazz

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Flow is a chained sequence of clips where the clips prior gives context to the next. Same thing as how melodies are a sequence of notes. Its not needed but for a faster tempo video, flow helps create a less jarring experience.

There can be multiple sequences/events in a single clip.

Yea?
 
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sts

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Some very valid points here. To me when trying to maintain a flow when editing is simply sticking to the flow of the song and using that with my edits. Also having the perfects clips to maintain the flow.
 
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YOHAN

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I've always edited my videos as if I was making music. When I'm selecting clips, I'm usually thinking about "the texture" of the clip in relation to the song at hand.

For example, say a song has a distorted guitar being used in the song. I would select a clip based on how that clip texturizes the song's feeling. If the clip adds to the texture of the song, I'd use it.

For rhythm, I found not fully locking myself to the tempo, in this case the actual BPM of the song, makes the video gain it's emotional value. I found experimenting and "trolling" the tempo of the song creates depth within the clip selection and flow of the video. Trolling as in editing fast on a slow song or editing slow on a fast song.

So If a song's time signature is 4/4, which is usual for most American songs, you'd typically pace your clips hitting each 1 beat making 4 clips within that song's bar. Sometimes I will experiment with the song's time signature switching between 1 beat clips, 3 beat clips and, depending on the intent, half a beat right in my edit. So one whole clip uninterrupted would take a whole beat or half a beat. Especially for fast paced editing theres mostly 1 beat, half beat, and even quarter beat clips. Obviously what clip I select depends on the context of the clip with the emotion of the song, the story being told by me (and the singer if there's vocals necessitating lyrical syncing), and how that clip feels within the grander scheme of the video.

So it's part math part emotion.
 
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Midnight Jazz

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I've always edited my videos as if I was making music. When I'm selecting clips, I'm usually thinking about "the texture" of the clip in relation to the song at hand.

For example, say a song has a distorted guitar being used in the song. I would select a clip based on how that clip texturizes the song's feeling. If the clip adds to the texture of the song, I'd use it.

For rhythm, I found not fully locking myself to the tempo, in this case the actual BPM of the song, makes the video gain it's emotional value. I found experimenting and "trolling" the tempo of the song creates depth within the clip selection and flow of the video. Trolling as in editing fast on a slow song or editing slow on a fast song.

So If a song's time signature is 4/4, which is usual for most American songs, you'd typically pace your clips hitting each 1 beat making 4 clips within that song's bar. Sometimes I will experiment with the song's time signature switching between 1 beat clips, 3 beat clips and, depending on the intent, half a beat right in my edit. So one whole clip uninterrupted would take a whole beat or half a beat. Especially for fast paced editing theres mostly 1 beat, half beat, and even quarter beat clips. Obviously what clip I select depends on the context of the clip with the emotion of the song, the story being told by me (and the singer if there's vocals necessitating lyrical syncing), and how that clip feels within the grander scheme of the video.

So it's part math part emotion.
Yea I'm nowhere near as in depth as you are. I do find you as one of the more rhythmic editors so I highly respect your take. Your Thank You video is one of the more gratifying videos in recent time here. That being said, "emotion", "feelings", "thoughts", heart, divine intervention, etc are vague almost cop out answers. I think some are more susceptible to a rhythm than others like you or Lee like second nature but not everyone can see it so obviously. Lee has more of a melodic approach who plays around with the rhythm while you are more of the rhythmic aggressor which I find both endearing.

Of course, if you were to put together a high tempo video, you'd need to hear all the breaks and gear changes in between beats in the song to not make a messy video but this thread wasn't about that at least not yet. Having rhythm (slow or fast) itself is more than enough to smooth out a video. Take Lee's "Lightning Strike" video for example one of my favorites, had a slower tempo but in rhythm. The song's verses themselves are in a rhythm so all the clips in the video fell into place. A handful of odd cuts will not hurt a video but its when the rhythm is mostly ignored is where it negates the songs euphoric stimulant.

In most cases the melody is very apparent in the chorus/hook of the song. The vocals are notes themselves. Following along that, the video would encapsulate the songs energy.
 
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YOHAN

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... "emotion", "feelings", "thoughts", heart, divine intervention, etc are vague almost cop out answers. I think some are more susceptible to a rhythm than others like you or Lee like second nature but not everyone can see it so obviously. Lee has more of a melodic approach who plays around with the rhythm while you are more of the rhythmic aggressor which I find both endearing.
I should have included this in my original post but yea you're spot on. It's like music, some can get it and some don't.

You might be referring to the coldest strike (the orton video). Not sure so I can't respond to that. But even on that video our discussion could continue. Lee would go 3 beats on the song starting at 2:15, showing Orton's brutality in effect for 3 beats and the result for one.

I guess, for discussion sake, we can combine the idea that both melody and the bpm of the song at hand could mostly determine clip choice. But yea you def touched on something very important to even the most beginner's skill set. DONT IGNORE RHYTHM!

Also thinking about doing a revision of thank you at some point. Some parts are a little too fast and it needs another pass.

LETS KEEP HOT TAKE A CONSISTENT TREND.
 
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PEANUT

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Body slams are fun to line up with snare hits. Anything else is just noise. You guys are reading into it too much. sync, pace, flow is all a combination of fundamental techniques/manipulation to create the rhythm of the cut. (The Edit)

You can have a cut have rhythm by ignoring tempo, melody...song rhythm ...depending on the video you are making. If we are speaking strictly a 1:20 mv of a taking back Sunday song you might struggle with that, but it’s also a one dimensional take of mv cutting. Which nobody is reading into. It comes down to experience and teaching your eye to remember what’s right and your knowledge of the software of how to get it there.
 
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YOHAN

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I've seen big-time editors make timeline marks manually according to the song so that their cuts are on beat. I've even debated buying BeatEdit in order to truly stay on beat. But it's not worth the $100 if I can find the BPM myself and make the markers myself.

I do think there's more to syncing, tempo, etc than just body slam hits. (Might be trolling. idk) Like syncing a Shawn Michaels elbow drop or the entrance spin he does in the ring. You can sync a forward motion for example rather than the hit of the motion, or if it's multiple hits in the clip, use those hits to your advantage.

I definitely do look at Lee's the woman at the end of the world as a perfect example of this perspective.
 

PEANUT

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Most editors I work with mark the timeline for hits, if I have time I do the same. I do it in my source window in a quick pass so I can easily find 2 and 4. Especially if there’s VO and the clip switching is more so being dictated by the delivery of speech.

But what you just described is what I meant by experience and learning how to create the rhythm of the edit (which is separate of BPM) like I said if it’s strictly an MV edit, no VO, or anything where the music acts as a bed. BPM and knowing where the beats are helps, yes.

An experienced editor (hobbiest or professional) gets from the experience how to create the (flow) by learning what feels right without thought of how to move from clip to clip. Given it means, the previous cut needs to be adjusted so Shawn Michaels arms are top of screen right so when the next clip of Shawn Michaels elbow dropping from top of screen right down to land the elbow drop on the snare hit, it feels right and is fun. (Just an example).

It’s just a puzzle and making all the pieces work together.
 

YOHAN

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An experienced editor (hobbiest or professional) gets from the experience how to create the (flow) by learning what feels right without thought of how to move from clip to clip. Given it means, the previous cut needs to be adjusted so Shawn Michaels arms are top of screen right so when the next clip of Shawn Michaels elbow dropping from top of screen right down to land the elbow drop on the snare hit, it feels right and is fun. (Just an example).

It’s just a puzzle and making all the pieces work together.
I guess this could answer the concern Jazz brought up about the vagueness of the term "emotion" when talking about rhythm and melody. Because a common problem I see in (with all due respect) "lower tier" videos is either a lack of considering tempo at all, or executing a very basic tempo structure. Both equally frustrating imo. Since sonics in our community are the bed of our art and we, usually, have the time to execute an edit with markers, I guess meditating on the song's tempo can help out editors who are trying to get to the next level

All art is sort of a puzzle tho. I can agree with that.

I honestly dont even think we answered the presented question LOL. I guess rhythm and melody have to be linked with pace, tempo (obviously with rhythm). Flow, however, goes back to the very basic rules of editing. Combine that with Walter Murch's perspective on editing and you have a good foundation for all video editing.
 
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Midnight Jazz

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I've seen big-time editors make timeline marks manually according to the song so that their cuts are on beat. I've even debated buying BeatEdit in order to truly stay on beat. But it's not worth the $100 if I can find the BPM myself and make the markers myself.

I do think there's more to syncing, tempo, etc than just body slam hits. (Might be trolling. idk) Like syncing a Shawn Michaels elbow drop or the entrance spin he does in the ring. You can sync a forward motion for example rather than the hit of the motion, or if it's multiple hits in the clip, use those hits to your advantage.

I definitely do look at Lee's the woman at the end of the world as a perfect example of this perspective.
Yes I was thinking about the actual song name lightning strike and mislabeled the mv name the coldest strike. Lol

I agree whole heartedly about more to syncing other than a body slam. Seeing editors with good use of slow motion freezing at the shot of a crowd or height of a jump is a very good sign of a matured editor to me. I've seen a lot of other amazing more impressive isolated moments in Lee's or eves video which adds a lot of finess to the video to me. This tells me there's a lot of wise video photography skill there by highlighting these smaller moments that I wouldn't even think about.

But you're right unfortunately, this thread may have steered off course.

I still stand by the op. If there's no melody, where would you flow toward. If there's no rhythm, how can you pace your video. A drum beat keeps the tempo and is barely a rhythm by itself.
 

YOHAN

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But you're right unfortunately, this thread may have steered off course.

I still stand by the op. If there's no melody, where would you flow toward? If there's no rhythm, how can you pace your video? A drum beat keeps the tempo and is barely a rhythm by itself.
Well firstly, this is definitely answered through the editor/artist listening to the song a bunch of times in order to find some sort of groove in their own head. For me, I have a couple of WWE clips in my head that likes to pop up any time I'm considering a video idea. However, this is very difficult to continue doing since the actual source material I end up using will not be the same. At least some sort of flow and pace is created in my head and after that, I go about executing the video itself.

I figure if there is a prominent melody, which will most likely happen, you're usually pacing your clips based on the story the melody is telling. (Yes, melodies tell stories). If a melody is happy, you pace and select your clips for a happy vibe. Same goes for a melody that's sad, frantic, contemplative, etc. Like, imagine making a wrestling video to Frank Ocean's cover of Moon River. LOL

If there's no melody, you'd probably edit for the aesthetics of the song. A good video that comes to mind that tries this out is Trolly's experimental "HASC" in which the only prominent melody is the sample death grips used in the song. So he has to resort to the audio effects, MC Ride's vocal performance and vocal effects, and finally the drums. Same goes for a handful of Neo's and MNC's past work.

However, if the bed of the video isn't music, I'm not entirely sure since in narrative filmmaking you're not really editing to a tempo, but rather pacing your film based on your visual source material. We, as a community, are not executing narrative films. We're still fundamentally creating music videos no different than any music video by big artists.

I could totally be wrong, but this is how I look at it at least.
 
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Midnight Jazz

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Well firstly, this is definitely answered through the editor/artist listening to the song a bunch of times in order to find some sort of groove in their own head. For me, I have a couple of WWE clips in my head that likes to pop up any time I'm considering a video idea. However, this is very difficult to continue doing since the actual source material I end up using will not be the same. At least some sort of flow and pace is created in my head and after that, I go about executing the video itself.

I figure if there is a prominent melody, which will most likely happen, you're usually pacing your clips based on the story the melody is telling. (Yes, melodies tell stories). If a melody is happy, you pace and select your clips for a happy vibe. Same goes for a melody that's sad, frantic, contemplative, etc. Like, imagine making a wrestling video to Frank Ocean's cover of Moon River. LOL

If there's no melody, you'd probably edit for the aesthetics of the song. A good video that comes to mind that tries this out is Trolly's experimental "HASC" in which the only prominent melody is the sample death grips used in the song. So he has to resort to the audio effects, MC Ride's vocal performance and vocal effects, and finally the drums. Same goes for a handful of Neo's and MNC's past work.

However, if the bed of the video isn't music, I'm not entirely sure since in narrative filmmaking you're not really editing to a tempo, but rather pacing your film based on your visual source material. We, as a community, are not executing narrative films. We're still fundamentally creating music videos no different than any music video by big artists.

I could totally be wrong, but this is how I look at it at least.
The thread was about music. I unfortunately barely see the hasc video as music but then again I barely consider dubstep as music either. This is subjective. So I think the topics here won't really apply to those mentioned above.

Before this goes in any further, I do think contextualizing what we're doing here in this community is important. There are many purposes for an edit. Yea? We don't categorize like what the amv community already neatly do so many forms of editing structure overlap each other for an unclear objective. For example a highlight video should be just that; a highlight. I think cutting into the highlights instead of editing around it defeats that purpose. I think editing and cutting into wwe's amazing cinematography work is bad. I think chopping up for what was suppose to be a "recap" is taking too much liberties and looks like wasted effort. Fx right now is still a subjective matter unless we're just nitpicking it. If we look at the freestyle in an editing sense, I think it is undisputed that a video will be too fast or too slow or offbeat.

But for those that don't have rhythm like a movie score I think does still count as a music piece because it has a tempo but only to create ambience that uses the source material to heighten that impact like a peaceful or frantic scene.

Love talking to ya yohan

I dare you to create a hot take
 
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Midnight Jazz

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Music Video Topics! Nothing else rn off the top of my head.

Mainly continued this discussion so that the up and coming editors or intermediate editors can take notes.
This was by no means meant to be a lecture rather an exploration together.

I've always felt this community have always kept to themselves. AMV community already have music videos down to a science.
 
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